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	<title>Comments on: Metamor City Sidebar: What IS magic, anyway?</title>
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	<link>http://marscreativeprojects.com/brotherosric/2009/05/tprt-4-sidebar-what-is-magic/</link>
	<description>A webcolumn by Michael Spence, wherein science fiction and fantasy meet &#34;the queen of the sciences&#34;</description>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://marscreativeprojects.com/brotherosric/2009/05/tprt-4-sidebar-what-is-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-1658</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 18:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;That would certainly tie in with the rise of industrialization. The wizard becomes an engineer. (Steampunk magic, hurrah! It&#039;s not just smoke and mirrors, it&#039;s smoke plus mirrors plus clockwork!)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;[Note: cf. also the rise of an engineering mentality among evangelical Christians during the twentieth century, exemplified by classic dispensationalism. That&#039;s not a pejorative, just an observation. We want to know What&#039;s Going On, in as much detail as we can.]&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Actually, my thesis depends less on the persona (or lack thereof) of the magic source than with the idea that we feel there needs to be something understandable about it if we&#039;re to use it. This is certainly an industrialization-compatible idea, but I imagine it&#039;s rooted in the Enlightenment at the latest. Which would also account for the Eastern/Western dichotomy.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It also enables us in the West to feel more comfortable. After all, if &lt;em&gt;we&lt;/em&gt; don&#039;t know what makes it tick (heh), we&#039;re at the mercy of the one who does &#8212; the god/demigod/djinn. Which makes us &quot;masters of our fate&quot; very, very nervous. To illustrate:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;Cho:&lt;/em&gt; If dark forces did exist, it stands to reason there could be people who control them for their own ends.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;em&gt;Patrick:&lt;/em&gt; They&#039;re called investment bankers.&lt;br /&gt;&#8212; &lt;em&gt;The Mentalist:&lt;/em&gt; &quot;Red Rum&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Economics. &lt;shudder&gt; Makes &lt;em&gt;me&lt;/em&gt; nervous, anyway. Especially after realizing that what I learned about it in school is rubbish.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would certainly tie in with the rise of industrialization. The wizard becomes an engineer. (Steampunk magic, hurrah! It&#8217;s not just smoke and mirrors, it&#8217;s smoke plus mirrors plus clockwork!)</p>
<p>[Note: cf. also the rise of an engineering mentality among evangelical Christians during the twentieth century, exemplified by classic dispensationalism. That's not a pejorative, just an observation. We want to know What's Going On, in as much detail as we can.]</p>
<p>Actually, my thesis depends less on the persona (or lack thereof) of the magic source than with the idea that we feel there needs to be something understandable about it if we&#8217;re to use it. This is certainly an industrialization-compatible idea, but I imagine it&#8217;s rooted in the Enlightenment at the latest. Which would also account for the Eastern/Western dichotomy.</p>
<p>It also enables us in the West to feel more comfortable. After all, if <em>we</em> don&#8217;t know what makes it tick (heh), we&#8217;re at the mercy of the one who does &mdash; the god/demigod/djinn. Which makes us &#8220;masters of our fate&#8221; very, very nervous. To illustrate:</p>
<blockquote><p><em>Cho:</em> If dark forces did exist, it stands to reason there could be people who control them for their own ends.<br /><em>Patrick:</em> They&#8217;re called investment bankers.<br />&mdash; <em>The Mentalist:</em> &#8220;Red Rum&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Economics. &lt;shudder&gt; Makes <em>me</em> nervous, anyway. Especially after realizing that what I learned about it in school is rubbish.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Daniel Sawyer</title>
		<link>http://marscreativeprojects.com/brotherosric/2009/05/tprt-4-sidebar-what-is-magic/comment-page-1/#comment-1657</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Daniel Sawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 05:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marscreativeprojects.com/brotherosric/?p=476#comment-1657</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Interesting article, Michael, very enjoyable.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;One nit with your central thesis, which is that most magic, from primitive tribal religions all the way up through sophistocated religious practice, is what you would here call &quot;scientific&quot; in the sense that it works according to certain rules, is understood to be constrained by certain limitations, etc.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I think the major difference is that post-Victorian views of magic are more likely to view magic as tapping a natural force rather than currying favor with a god/demigod to secure their agency in gaining access to power.  But this isn&#039;t exactly a constrained thing -- Dharmic religions are more likely to view the universal source of magic as impersonal, while Occidental ones are more likely to view it as personal (although this isn&#039;t a hard-and-fast rule).&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Anyway, that&#039;s my nit, FWIW -- thanks for the enjoyable article!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&#8212; Dan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article, Michael, very enjoyable.</p>
<p>One nit with your central thesis, which is that most magic, from primitive tribal religions all the way up through sophistocated religious practice, is what you would here call &#8220;scientific&#8221; in the sense that it works according to certain rules, is understood to be constrained by certain limitations, etc.</p>
<p>I think the major difference is that post-Victorian views of magic are more likely to view magic as tapping a natural force rather than currying favor with a god/demigod to secure their agency in gaining access to power.  But this isn&#8217;t exactly a constrained thing &#8212; Dharmic religions are more likely to view the universal source of magic as impersonal, while Occidental ones are more likely to view it as personal (although this isn&#8217;t a hard-and-fast rule).</p>
<p>Anyway, that&#8217;s my nit, FWIW &#8212; thanks for the enjoyable article!</p>
<p>&mdash; Dan</p>
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